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 Post subject: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:34 am 
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a walk though about how to rebuild or highflow your own HT18S turbo
feel free to ask questions or provide your own pics or even dyno results

i have two turbo's to strip to make the best hiflow rebuild from the pair
this one is for a friend
myself ATM run a 0.60 front V trim s5 highflow on the rx7
and a T trim stage 1 s4 for the rx2

the final turbo built in this walk through
will feature a late style T rim compressor wheel in a hogged HT18s cover
backcut rear turbine wheel with a modded large wastegate
and a modded larger backplate

its technically a small stage 1 hiflow ,, with backcut and larger internal wastegate

the aim is to achieve a turbo that isnt overly big on the compressor
- and low on the pressure ratio between front and rear
this will have benefits that include a reasonable lifetime
-- and meanwhile to prevent dreaded creep that some hiflows can be prone to


projected output at 1 bar boost
using the hardest conversion factors to keep the estimate conservative
1lb/min = 14.27046 CFM
compressor specs
54mm T6 compressor wheel = 44 lb/min
= 628 CFM
628 CFM/1.92
= 327 engine BHP
327BHP x 0.85
= 278 RWHP



the disassembles--

Image
turbo 1,, stock ,,but with an already modded rear housing with decent wastegate flap

Image
turbo 2,, a dead highflow , stockish modded wastegate in the rear housing

Image
presence of the s5 wastegate arm ( on a s4 rear turbine housing ),, and a few mix match bolts and fittings
tell you someone played here before me


Image

Image
backcut rear wheel,, with plenty of oil on it !
Image
mark the housings alignment to the CHRA to aid in re-assembly
if the wheel pairs are going back together,, mark them also in alignment to the CHRA mark to circumvent need to re-balance


Image
a bit of heat may be needed if the nut is glued on ,, this is to prevent the use of force which may bend the shaft
hitachi and garrett use conventional thread direction and so glue is necessary for hiflows
trust and knightsports use reverse thread,, be aware before you bend or shear the shaft !

Image

Image


Image

Image
when its all undone at the front , tap the shaft end on the bench to free the rear wheel seal from the CHRA
Image
using some pointy circlip pliers ( you may have to grind the tips to a fine point )
remove the outer circlips and withdraw the bearings


Image


Image

Image
backcut and stock turbine wheels comparison
Image

Image
this is a decent sized wastegate mod !
note the machine work to clear the wastegate door button,, the much larger relief,, also cut through to the second scroll
-- s4 wastegate only vents one scroll, and this mod is necessary to s4 to help control the creep

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:35 am 
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kit
- as this is using a hogged HT-18s hifi'd cover
,, many of the 0.60 cover flanges are not usable,, nor is the extra supplied dynamic seal
the 270 bearing is a steel 3 hole HD one
-- 360 is not necessary here due to the combo of back cut rear and conservative compressor wheel selection
aim here is for a turbo operating around 15 psi boost with minimal back pressure ratio to avoid axial thrusting across the core
( which is why bigger hiflows demand a 360 bearing )

Image

bits,, T ( 6 ) to4b trim wheel and back-cut rear turbine backing plate machined to 71 mm for the 70 major diameter of the compressor


rating the compressor conservatively with the heaviest conversion factors--

1lb/min = 14.27046 CFM
54mm TO4B T ( 6 ) compressor wheel = 44 lb/min
= 628 CFM
628 CFM/1.92
= 327 engine BHP
327BHP x 0.85
= 278 RWHP

Image
cover is hogged to 54.5 ID,, the inside is also profiled to suit the 70mm wide tips and there height

Image

Image
use carb cleaner to ensure all the passages are cleaned

Image

Image


Image
install bearings and circlips
( i leave the mazda inner clips in place,, as they are difficult for common fine needle nose pliers to reach for )

Image

Image
use a socket to drive out the old front carbon seal

Image
use a ring spanner with love taps around the outside rim of the new seal to drive it home

Image
note the magic trick to prevent thrusting and lifting of the collet from the front seal
-- doubled up spider washers !

Image

Image
install the rear dynamic seal by walking it up the grooves one end at a time
-careful not to stretch it !

Image
all home in a clean groove , AOK

Image
install the rear heat shield
be aware that very early HT-18S for s4
( sometimes obvious by the use of smaller banjo's for cooling water )
that the original design uses a double heat shield,,one inside another
and so the rear turbine housing made for thus have a deeper step to sit the cartridge with double shields into
- if using this turbine housing you need the double shields ,, or some tricks to account for the missing deck height
( namely a ring of copper wire in the housing step )


Image
270 installation,, there is a front and a rear side,, so align oil gallery pickup to the cartridge face

Image

Image
installed front plate,, 360 bearing collet and the rear turbine with shaft

care is taken when installing the rear shaft and seal into the cartridge
- if you flip the rear wheel up vertical ,, you can see the seal from the rear of the heat shield
using fine screw drivers,, you can tease in the dynamic seal so it goes into the cartridge without force
Image

dab of glue to help against unwinding under boost or reversion
- mazda and garrett use conventional direction thread
- i reuse the mazda nut ,, as its a metric spanner ( 10mm ) unlike the garret one

Image
multispanner grabs the rear shaft without any damage ,,
and be careful with the tension, shafts are easy to bend
( and why in previous pics it was undone with heat help )

Image

core is done,, this one aligned back to the original disassemble marks so i wont bother with re-balance
( and i have done that many times,, and not had much issues )
- each part has its own dynamic balance built in,, and if the front isnt massively huge a re balance is often not necessary for some applications
( some mechs often don't do it for diesel trucks ,, just mix and match off the shelf )

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:35 am 
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stock and not so stock
machined out to clear a 36mm button, 32mm drilled through to both scrolls
with the machined flat base for the wastegate button on this turbo
comes the need for a shorter wastegate arm

Image
secret squirrel trick to mod the wastegate without burning out the diagphram
Image
Image
the wastegate gets an external assist spring to aid against boost creep
Image
the rear plate on the turbo is hogged out to suit a larger dump
Image
backcut rear
Image
T trim stage 1 front s4 highflow !

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:36 am 
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and for a bit of further info if your thinking of doing some truck wrecker lucky dips-


bumpstart wrote:
Image
Image

HT 18s-2s cover and backing-plate modded for V trim ( full wheel ) left,, stock right
backing plate is machined to 71 mm ,, stock cover is machined to 56.6 mm in the inlet
( removing the reversion step , and leaving approx 2 mm of the original snout )
on the inside,, the profile has been taken out to 11 mm from the edges
( stock cover is 16 mm remaining on the flat )

"small shaft t04" diameter is 6.25-6.35 mm at the compressor ( t04b and some t04E )
"big shaft t04" is 7.83-7.93 mm at the compressor ( some t04E and most t04S,R and TA types )
T06 shaft size is 9.40-9.50 mm
[ both measurements are given,, one is the shaft,, other is the bore ID in the compressor wheel ]


metric measurements of the common "small shaft" compressors used on the hitachi 18s-2s in ascending outright flows -
name,, compressor inducer diameter, exducer diameter, height to the inducer, number of blades, tip height, expected peak airflow ( pounds/min ) [ if avail ]

stock-- 44 mm , 63mm, 24mm, 6 blades, 6.4 mm

S trim - 48.3 - 49.5 mm , 70 mm , ? , 8 blades , 6.0 mm
( used in a modded cover or to4b cover )
35 lb/min

T trim- 52.85 mm, 70mm , ?, 8 blades , 6.10 mm
( used in modded cover or to4b cover )
42 lb/min??

V trim -55.35 mm, 70 mm, ( 26mm ? still on car ! ), 8 blades, 6.2mm
( used in modded cover or full to4b cover )
48 lb/min

s320 knightsports -56mm, 70 mm, 26mm, 7 blades , 4.1 mm
( only used in a to4b 0.60 type cover )
[ looks machined and may well be a 60-1 turned down ]
48 lb/min

H trim- 58- 59.7 mm ( depending on H1,2,3 ), 70 mm, ?, 8 blades, 6.2mm
( used in a very hogged out modded cover or to4b cover )
49 lb/min

t04E 57 trim --56.5 mm, 75mm, ?, 6 blades, 6.10
( used in to4 E 0.70 cover , or sometimes t04b 0.60 )
49 lb/min

t04E 60 trim --- 58 mm, 75mm, ?, 6 blades, 6.10
( used in a to4E cover )
50 lb/min

t04B 60-1 --59 mm, 76.2 mm, ? , 7 blades ( IIRC ), ?
( used in a t04"S" 0.70 cover, or machined B 0.60 cover )
65 lb/min

note E compressors are inefficient compared to B types at low output pressures
-- but more efficient than B types at higher boosts
so its not all in the outright airflows,, as B will likely give more area under the curve with a lower inertia and higher low boost efficiency
( but worse adiabatic performance at higher boosts than an E )

source--
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/7834/pic0423389.jpg

also -

http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/applica ... ressor.php
http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/turbos/data.php

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:34 am 
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nice thread!, here's a link to page on my old website http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/penesaar/turbo.htm
I havent even read it in years, but its a simple overview on the assembly side of things.
Feel free to poach any of the pics etc...

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:29 pm 
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Great thread Bump.

Quote:
t04E 57 trim --56.5 mm, 75mm, ?, 6 blades, 6.10
( used in to4 E 0.70 cover , or sometimes t04b 0.60 )
49 lb/min


FYI

One of my hiflows has a T04E 57 trim wheel which is in a machined stock cover.

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:59 pm 
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WLD 07 wrote:
Great thread Bump.

Quote:
t04E 57 trim --56.5 mm, 75mm, ?, 6 blades, 6.10
( used in to4 E 0.70 cover , or sometimes t04b 0.60 )
49 lb/min


FYI

One of my hiflows has a T04E 57 trim wheel which is in a machined stock cover.


mine is 57 to.


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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:48 pm 
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Great info bump
I might have a go at rebuiding my smokey turbo.
I was going to get it done at a rotary shop in brizzy.
Where do you get all the parts from for a rebuild..
I have a s4 exhaust housing, with an air reseach front on it. Mine is very oily around the rear wheel, but still feels okay for play.


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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:17 pm 
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if you hit up ebay there is many t3/t4 rebuild kits very cheap,, but you may need to dissassemble yours first to be sure what type of front seal your current hiflow is using

mazda/hitachi and quite a lot of t04b stuff uses the carbon ( encapsulated ) seal
though some t04e stuff will need a dynamic ( piston ring ) seal

the kits differ in these details and you need to get the right one
,, many places will open the packet and swap the components suit your need
ie,, upgrade the front 270 bearing to steel,, or even to 360 bearing,,, to give you stagger gap rear seal etc

however,, i advise you to keep to genuine garret kit,, which may cost more,, but has oodles more quality ( read happy time between rebuilds )


it is fairly common for the main bearings to be OK,, and only need for front, rear and 270 bearings
so you can actually hit up the local shop and purchase these parts separately


as a hint,, steel 3 hole 270 bearing is only $15- 25 individually at some shops ( garrett )

as a minimum you would change the 270 bearing, bearing collar and the rear seal
,,as in some cases you may find you dont need front seal or main bearings

but first you should inspect the old bearings for visible issues
,, and for bluing and shrinking on the main shaft ( indicating oil supply/cleanliness issue )
which may be fixed by some shops on the lathe,,and matched with oversize bearings
( me i have plenty of spares and if the shaft is blue with shrinkage i will reach for another )

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:40 pm 
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280rwhp on 1 bar will be very good.

i had stock s5 rear with v trim to4b hiflo front and it went 280rwhp on 21psi.ran 13.1@116mph on streeters.

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:58 pm 
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rotorpsi1 wrote:
280rwhp on 1 bar will be very good.

i had stock s5 rear with v trim to4b hiflo front and it went 280rwhp on 21psi.ran 13.1@116mph on streeters.

while a lot of people concentrate on getting the biggest compressor ,, there is fair evidence the back end is a bigger brake than most anticipate


on one of my project cars ( ute ) i put a home backcut s4 turbo with s trim on an LPG mixer 6 port engine
-- less than 50 mm on the minor inducer
that is pretty much the smallest of highflows

this motor turned 286 rwhp at only 13 psi of boost,, small internal gate mods with a 2.5 inch dump , very quiet exhaust

the lesson-
the difference is that turbine backpressure ratio was addressed
,, rather than ignored or overcompensated with a too large a compressor

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:03 pm 
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thanks again bump you have helped me alot with my 1300 build over the years

When i remove the turbo from my car, ill take pictures as i go, i do have a few stock turbos laying around which i have killed ill have a practice disassemble and look at them first. :|

I got 264rwhp out of my 12a with 13psi ,im happy with it , have a look at my 1300 at queens raceway

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ht2aVAaZuk


Last edited by 130ORX on Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:06 pm 
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Thanks for this :)


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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:19 am 
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bumpstart wrote:
rotorpsi1 wrote:
280rwhp on 1 bar will be very good.

i had stock s5 rear with v trim to4b hiflo front and it went 280rwhp on 21psi.ran 13.1@116mph on streeters.

while a lot of people concentrate on getting the biggest compressor ,, there is fair evidence the back end is a bigger brake than most anticipate


on one of my project cars ( ute ) i put a home backcut s4 turbo with s trim on an LPG mixer 6 port engine
-- less than 50 mm on the minor inducer
that is pretty much the smallest of highflows

this motor turned 286 rwhp at only 13 psi of boost,, small internal gate mods with a 2.5 inch dump , very quiet exhaust

the lesson-
the difference is that turbine backpressure ratio was addressed
,, rather than ignored or overcompensated with a too large a compressor



Hi Bumpstart,

Bringing up an older thread but I am up to deciding on the turbo for my racecar. I am running in the Marque Sports Car class so according to the "rules" it needs to stay stock but boost can be changed. Having said this the other FC3S in my class runs a TO4Z! I like you approach to the whole turbo not just the biggest front you can slam on there so I hope you can assist.

I have the following parts already. An S5 Knighsports RF320 with the Turbonetics? style front cover. Was meant to be rebuilt when I got it but it's oily. The rear housing has some hairline cracks (common?). I also have my stock S5 turbo which was running fine. I also have the adjustable wastegate actuator from Kinugawa for this turbo, along with an ASK manifold - that looks to perhaps not suit the twin scroll (has no divide in the manifold). Could I still use that manifold with an S5 turbo or is their no advantage?

My other mods are 1000cc injectors, microtec, HKS upgraded top mount, 3" exhaust - usual supporting mods for a track car. I would like to get to at least 300hp at the wheels. Car is not a daily driver and fuel consumption, emissions and driveability are not an issue.

What combination of parts/specs for the turbo would you reccomend to get me to this? Would the hogged out stock front cover get there or should I use the Knightsport one? It is not much bigger so I would get away with it for a visual inspection I think.

I am trying to build the car in the spirit of the period it's from. Hence the top mount, and a highflow. It fits the class and the spirit of the build (and my budget!). All the other parts are from the mid/late 90's. Wheels, front bar, suspension, wing etc.

Look forward to your advice!

James.

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 Post subject: Re: the rebuild highflow turbo thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:22 pm 
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to quantify the knighty measure the inside diameter of the compressor around the minor inducer.. see if you have 55.4mm ( V ) or 54.15mm ( U ) sized equivalents
( knighty will be 7 blades ,, the t04b replacements are 8 )

then remove rear turbine volute.. knighty RF rear wheel is reverse thread nut front and significantly shorter height tips at the major diameter on the turbine
( around 3-4 mm compared to stock at 9.3 mm )

if the tips are 9.3mm tall then you have a S320.. not the RF 320 ..
Image
rf 320 and stock

the knighty is capable of around 300- 320 rwhp on a stock s5 divided manifold,, though it may be judged non stock because of the 0.60 front cover

other options is to modify a standard front compressor cover.. this increases spool for some cost in top end adiabatic efficiency
it will however get around a visual inspection as stock

in the aims of what fits comfortably in a stock cover,, would look for a U trim compressor ( 54.15/ 70 mm )
this will require the front cover be milled to around 55mm ,, and the backing plate out to 71mm

normally,, on your average mildport 13b ,, this compressor would hit a wall around 280- 290 rwhp at 1 bar boost with a stock turbine and hogged cover
typically 300 rwhp hiflows can be very spikey in boost control with a bad initial overshoot and then the boost will fall in a heap / back to stock / as the backpressure builds

the trick here is to order a special turbine wheel.. a stage t2 t3 turbonetics turbine wheel ..
that is actually TA34 turbine shaft wheel 451311-0002

Inducer Diameter : 65.0mm
Exducer Diameter : 53.9mm
Tip Height 9.35mm
Journal Bearing Diameter : 10.2 mm
Comp Wheel Bore : 6.3 mm
REVERSE THREADED ( left handed ) NUT !!
Garrett TA34 Turbine Shaft Wheel 451311 0002 | eBay
http://r.ebay.com/zhm6hz



compared to a stock ht18s-2s turbine wheel
inducer : 63.5 mm
exducer : 54.2 mm
tips : 9.35mm
bearing : 10.2 mm
bore : 6.3 mm
Image
Image

note the t34 wheel is lesser minor diameter,,, very slightly oversize on the major diameter ,, but significantly lighter as the rear of the wheel is unshrouded



t34 ( also turbonetics stage 2 and panspeed hiflow ) , stock ht18s 2s, and knightsports rf 320 turbine comparisons
Image
t34, stock and rf 320
Image

Image
t34 and stock
this combo ( U/V trim front on a improved rear turbine ) ,,especially on a stock s5 turbo manifold with a modified 3 inch dump pipe ( backing plate and pipe built as one )
is capable of 280-300 rwhp at around 1 bar and ( if ta34 ) with excellent response... and will hold boost very well through the rev range with only basic wastegate mods
( slight oversize on internal gate sizes and adjustable can and or extra external helper spring )


at around 300 hp and for competition then you will see the need for a balance
( around $50 ,, just take shaft and compressor wheel )
however,, with V or U compressors you will get away with only needing the steel 270 upgrade
,, larger compressors will need to go 360 mods for longevity
would also select a stagger gap rear seal

TQ nut to 15 inch pounds then 90 degrees angle movement ..

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